To DKP or not to DKP that is the question.

[whitemikki]

The vote is below. Please add any comments in reply to this.

[Raincloud The Spiritual One]

there is not vote and DKP is screwed up. A player just farms DKP and when a great item comes up they get it instantly. Result other players get nothing due to low dkp.Dkp means everyone is treated differently they get DKP due to raid attendance not how they play or what they do. So they can sit there and do nothing and still egt the DKP....

[Preceptor]

As noone read it in last thread i will post it here so plz read

Clurie, not sure about mikki and others, but i think they are afraid of that Clurie wrote. That is what i was thinking last night. True, this system gives a lot of points to ppl that raid often and ppl coming from time to time would loot nothing until all ppl that have a lot dpk loot what they want. True another problem is what i said ppl we pug. Sommer said it and i have an idea that might solve these two problems and also eliminate rolling for most of situations. Why i dont like rolling is i have been in almost 4 complete cleanings of naxx, in third run i missed 3 bosses out of 15. With this current system i got 2 iteams in first run (chest token and legs) and after that no iteam for main spec because i cant get rolls or hellas (which is also statisticaly incorrect and i can if someone intrested in explanation, explain why is that not correct when someone assign you number and rolls for you) doesnt roll my number... so after 4 runs 2 iteams..... ppl loot 2 iteams for main spec on one boss (i dont care if someone loots more iteams on one boss for offspec, offspec doesnt count here). Ok so if looting is not part of fun... then again question why not dkps... members that have less time, play for fun and as looting is not important, dont see why dkp are not ok... yeah right.... we all like to loot as it is part of game.

So.... what to do in this mess... Here is what i had in mind:
Ok so naxx has 4 wings + 2 bosses, 4 wings have 13 bosses, all together 15 bosses in naxx. We can also add here malygos and sartharion, or leave them as is.

We can agree that any boss in wings is worth 10 dks (points or however you want to call them), sapphiron 20 and kel'thuzad 30 point (or we all make them 10 dkps which is 150 dkps per run. Why big numbers? It can also be 1 dkp per boss but than you are more likely to bid same amount for iteam then biding with higher numbers). Ok so on each fresh run of naxx each member in raid gets on begining 180 dkps (points). That includes ppl that are not from guild so they get fair and equal chance to get iteam in run as well. Also as all members get on each fresh run same amount of dkps doesnt matter if you raid often or from time to time. One more case: what about ppl that have to leave raid and we take someone instead of them (we keep dkp of leaving person and he willl have as till now advance before member that is changing him, the next day we continue raid). We can agree that, if we need suptituting member in raid to continue we can either give him same amount of dkps as for him it is fresh run or give them less dkps depending on how many bosses we downed (i would prefer same amount as all got on begining, becase he is now saved and also that means he has same chances as we are).

How would that look like:
Ok iteam drops. There is someone that doesnt need it for sure so he is asigned from LM to take whisps. Then he starts event of silent biding which is whisping one number less or equal to 180 to asigned person from ppl intrested for that iteam (you can whisp only once for that iteam). lets say bids are accepted for 20 to 30 secs after that they are closed. Person with highest bid gets iteam and his dkp for that run is substracted with bided amount of dkps.

What about two ppl bid same amount that is highest? We can deal that in two ways:
rolling between them
silent biding for them, but they have to bid higher amount than first time

List of ppl in raid will not be bigger than 20 ppl, that is for sure, but experience of 4 runs in naxx shows that there are mostly 14 ppl per run because of leaving before end of raid and so.

Ok, i have bid all my dkp and i have 0, what if iteam drops for my main spec and noone wants it for main spec. It would be stupid to de it or give for offspec if that is your main spec, so during whisps you will bid your 0 dkps and if noone is intrested in that iteam for main spec, you will get it for your main spec (that is an exception).

Offspecs with this system can be normaly done as it was till now, with rolling, i dont mind that.

Possible problem of this system are ppl that dont loot anything and then bid all on last boss iteams. Rolling ftw:)

Also possible problem is ppl that come and bid all on one iteam and are not willing to come to raid again that week, which i think wont happen between members of pinks and if that happens he wont be welcome in raid again, becase it is not fair to others.

This principle can be used in 25man as well, but maybe with more dkps or so as there are 4 iteams per boss.

There is a lot of text here so if something is still unclear or anything ask.

Ok now, i would like to hear comments. Ty

[Iehi]

bluedamme wrote:

Also possible problem is ppl that come and bid all on one iteam and are not willing to come to raid again that week, which i think wont happen between members of pinks and if that happens he wont be welcome in raid again, becase it is not fair to others.

With a dkp system people are more likely to join raids to kill bosses that doesnt drop loot they need because they would get dkp. Well that's what I think, atleast.

I'm all for a dkp system, raided in many different guilds and I have always found that guilds with a good dkp system seem to have much less trouble ditributing loot in a fair manner.

[Raincloud The Spiritual One]

[quote="Iehi"]

bluedamme wrote:

seem to have much less trouble ditributing loot in a fair manner.

So how is people rolling on main of offspec a problem in ditributing loot in a fair manner? it is all down to the roll who gets it unbiased. but when DKP comes into it then how is it fair? you bid like you are on ebay. Check who has what DKP bid 1 above them and win is that fair?

How can I say that becasue I haev seen it done countless times

[Clurie]

I will have to say no because of the worries I mentioned earlier.

Also, while I agree this would mean more help from experienced raiders in the low end raids later in the game, whether the chars gearing in those raids feel it worth a reduced chance of drops in high end raids is hard to say. I think more than helping newer chars gear, this will create groups running mostly for the DKPs.

Just to be clear, I’ve pretty much raided every week for months with Curio, regardless of whether I’ve had drops in the raid (though I tend to step aside for another tank if they need the gear and I have no drops left). I’m not expecting this system to be disadvantageous to me if I keep playing the way I have been. But would I want to step aside as often for a gearing tank?

If we’re limiting this to the different tiers, and separating 10 mans and 25 mans as well, then I would say yes. I don’t mind at all if someone who has run a raid a lot has an easier time getting a drop, or the last drop they need. It’s the idea of someone running Kara every week for a year just for DKPs and then picking up everything from BT the first few runs that becomes a big problem for me, or for that matter 10 man Naxx for 25 man Naxx drops. Perhaps no one would go to that first extreme—I doubt they will—but things getting this competitive for loot just feels unpleasant.

[Preceptor]

Clurie wrote:

I will have to say no because of the worries I mentioned earlier. Also, while I agree this would mean more help from experienced raiders in the low end raids later in the game, whether the chars gearing in those raids feel it worth a reduced chance of drops in high end raids is hard to say. I think more than helping newer chars gear, this will create groups running mostly for the DKPs. Just to be clear, I’ve pretty much raided every week for months with Curio, regardless of whether I’ve had drops in the raid (though I tend to step aside for another tank if they need the gear and I have no drops left). I’m not expecting this system to be disadvantageous to me if I keep playing the way I have been. But would I want to step aside as often for a gearing tank? If we’re limiting this to the different tiers, and separating 10 mans and 25 mans as well, then I would say yes. I don’t mind at all if someone who has run a raid a lot has an easier time getting a drop, or the last drop they need. It’s the idea of someone running Kara every week for a year just for DKPs and then picking up everything from BT the first few runs that becomes a big problem for me, or for that matter 10 man Naxx for 25 man Naxx drops. Perhaps no one would go to that first extreme—I doubt they will—but things getting this competitive for loot just feels unpleasant.

Ok, again i dont understand why all are talking about accumulating dkp... if that is not clear from my post then i say now, there is no accumulation. On each fresh run of naxx or any raid all participants get equal amount of points that they can bid for drops. All points from raids before are 0 so all start with same amount, so you raided 10 weeks or just first time in raid you get equal amount of points and you are equaly able to spend them for iteam and doing that you spend points and others have more for other drops in same run.

[whitemikki]

bluedamme wrote:

As noone read it in last thread i will post it here so plz read Clurie, not sure about mikki and others, but i think they are afraid of that Clurie wrote. That is what i was thinking last night. True, this system gives a lot of points to ppl that raid often and ppl coming from time to time would loot nothing until all ppl that have a lot dpk loot what they want. True another problem is what i said ppl we pug. Sommer said it and i have an idea that might solve these two problems and also eliminate rolling for most of situations. Why i dont like rolling is i have been in almost 4 complete cleanings of naxx, in third run i missed 3 bosses out of 15. With this current system i got 2 iteams in first run (chest token and legs) and after that no iteam for main spec because i cant get rolls or hellas (which is also statisticaly incorrect and i can if someone intrested in explanation, explain why is that not correct when someone assign you number and rolls for you) doesnt roll my number... so after 4 runs 2 iteams..... ppl loot 2 iteams for main spec on one boss (i dont care if someone loots more iteams on one boss for offspec, offspec doesnt count here). Ok so if looting is not part of fun... then again question why not dkps... members that have less time, play for fun and as looting is not important, dont see why dkp are not ok... yeah right.... we all like to loot as it is part of game. So.... what to do in this mess... Here is what i had in mind: Ok so naxx has 4 wings + 2 bosses, 4 wings have 13 bosses, all together 15 bosses in naxx. We can also add here malygos and sartharion, or leave them as is. We can agree that any boss in wings is worth 10 dks (points or however you want to call them), sapphiron 20 and kel'thuzad 30 point (or we all make them 10 dkps which is 150 dkps per run. Why big numbers? It can also be 1 dkp per boss but than you are more likely to bid same amount for iteam then biding with higher numbers). Ok so on each fresh run of naxx each member in raid gets on begining 180 dkps (points). That includes ppl that are not from guild so they get fair and equal chance to get iteam in run as well. Also as all members get on each fresh run same amount of dkps doesnt matter if you raid often or from time to time. One more case: what about ppl that have to leave raid and we take someone instead of them (we keep dkp of leaving person and he willl have as till now advance before member that is changing him, the next day we continue raid). We can agree that, if we need suptituting member in raid to continue we can either give him same amount of dkps as for him it is fresh run or give them less dkps depending on how many bosses we downed (i would prefer same amount as all got on begining, becase he is now saved and also that means he has same chances as we are). How would that look like: Ok iteam drops. There is someone that doesnt need it for sure so he is asigned from LM to take whisps. Then he starts event of silent biding which is whisping one number less or equal to 180 to asigned person from ppl intrested for that iteam (you can whisp only once for that iteam). lets say bids are accepted for 20 to 30 secs after that they are closed. Person with highest bid gets iteam and his dkp for that run is substracted with bided amount of dkps. What about two ppl bid same amount that is highest? We can deal that in two ways: rolling between them silent biding for them, but they have to bid higher amount than first time List of ppl in raid will not be bigger than 20 ppl, that is for sure, but experience of 4 runs in naxx shows that there are mostly 14 ppl per run because of leaving before end of raid and so. Ok, i have bid all my dkp and i have 0, what if iteam drops for my main spec and noone wants it for main spec. It would be stupid to de it or give for offspec if that is your main spec, so during whisps you will bid your 0 dkps and if noone is intrested in that iteam for main spec, you will get it for your main spec (that is an exception). Offspecs with this system can be normaly done as it was till now, with rolling, i dont mind that. Possible problem of this system are ppl that dont loot anything and then bid all on last boss iteams. Rolling ftw:) Also possible problem is ppl that come and bid all on one iteam and are not willing to come to raid again that week, which i think wont happen between members of pinks and if that happens he wont be welcome in raid again, becase it is not fair to others. This principle can be used in 25man as well, but maybe with more dkps or so as there are 4 iteams per boss. There is a lot of text here so if something is still unclear or anything ask. Ok now, i would like to hear comments. Ty

Blue, This was read last time. The reason nobody, including myself, didnt reply is because the system of DKP isnt important. If we decide to go with DKP it will be a system we come up with. Please remember this thread is being repeated in Vet Raiders & Officer chat. Your comments are read an taken in even if people do not choose to quote you directly in reply.

[whitemikki]

bluedamme wrote:

Clurie wrote: I will have to say no because of the worries I mentioned earlier. Also, while I agree this would mean more help from experienced raiders in the low end raids later in the game, whether the chars gearing in those raids feel it worth a reduced chance of drops in high end raids is hard to say. I think more than helping newer chars gear, this will create groups running mostly for the DKPs. Just to be clear, I’ve pretty much raided every week for months with Curio, regardless of whether I’ve had drops in the raid (though I tend to step aside for another tank if they need the gear and I have no drops left). I’m not expecting this system to be disadvantageous to me if I keep playing the way I have been. But would I want to step aside as often for a gearing tank? If we’re limiting this to the different tiers, and separating 10 mans and 25 mans as well, then I would say yes. I don’t mind at all if someone who has run a raid a lot has an easier time getting a drop, or the last drop they need. It’s the idea of someone running Kara every week for a year just for DKPs and then picking up everything from BT the first few runs that becomes a big problem for me, or for that matter 10 man Naxx for 25 man Naxx drops. Perhaps no one would go to that first extreme—I doubt they will—but things getting this competitive for loot just feels unpleasant. Ok, again i dont understand why all are talking about accumulating dkp... if that is not clear from my post then i say now, there is no accumulation. On each fresh run of naxx or any raid all participants get equal amount of points that they can bid for drops. All points from raids before are 0 so all start with same amount, so you raided 10 weeks or just first time in raid you get equal amount of points and you are equaly able to spend them for iteam and doing that you spend points and others have more for other drops in same run.

So Blue. After 3 bosses 1 tank and 2 dps leave. We now need to replace them! What do the people coming in get points wise??

TBH your system is no different than saying. 1 item per player. Instead atm we do 1 item and 1 tier piece per Raid Reset.

Please accept other peoples poinmt of view. You may not agree and that is you right but the idea of having everyones vote is to see what the majority think.

[Clurie]

OK sorry Blue, I did read your posts carefully, but I didn't know that by giving each person 180 for each fresh run you meant that these would be the only points every person had.

[Hellas-101]

Hello Guys .. I must admit I havent given myself the time to read this whole line of posts through as Im allways /Pinked off to do one thing or another.

I personally dont like the DKP system that much .. but I can understand you guys then you say you want it.

I have had the experience of being a member of the old time Raiding Guild called Closed Circle, way before I was in RMWP. They used the DKP system.

What I immediately noticed was that people who were new did not have any chase at all of getting any loot whatsoever .. even if they contributed to the raid .. and Pugs .. well lets just say they were taken in on raid only in extreme crisis, or not at all. They were told beforehand that they would not get any loot at all, for their participation, this was a guild run and the guild would get the loot.

The atmosphere was well .. very elitist and not as relaxed and friendly as we have here in RMWP.

The DKP will breed this kind of elitist attitude in some people .. if things are more relaxed and friendly this will not occur.

I really dont want RMWP to turn into an elitist guild where all people worry about is their loot and their epixx, it attracts the wrong kind of crowd.

Maybe we can solve this issue in other way than this .. But I have been using the Assignment of people and rolling myself only because .. if people roll twice .. or there is much to do on the raid chat .. the rolls will get confused and lost .. and if the lootmaster makes a mistake due to that .. or people see that someone has rolled twice .. all hell can break loose and things can get very ugly very fast !!

This system I am using prevents this kind of misunderstanding and at least it gives the people who loose the roll only one person to blame or direct their anger to .. namely the Master Looter .. and not other people in the Raid.

I was writing the names down on the people that got the loot in the 25 mans .. and maybe I will aslo have to do that in the 10 mans .. and tthen try and compare the lists over to older raids to see if one person is left out .. and then give a ZOMG priority to that person in the next raid .. and make sure that person walks away with something they really want in that new raid.

Because it is no fun at all when you dont get any loot .. and yes people can be extremely unlycky and lose rolls time and again.

Im open to all suggestions .. but please .. the DKP system is well .. I really dont like it !

Hellas

[Raia - The Flimsy Rogue]

I'll keep my answer short!

I say NO to DKP in RMWP!

Reason?

Well, it tends to support elitisism within a guild! And the very first reason why I joined RMWP was because it was not such a guild!
Also, I have activly worked against ANY elitisist thoughts that may have arroused within the guild... Some may say, even to much...

If you need more reason? Then bother ask me! I'm a grumpy, old rogue! And anyhow, I am totally against DKP!

[Freyathre]

As I wrote in one of the threads regarding DKP I'm still torn between yes or no. There is good and bad sides on each system.
I don't know if RMWP would be a elitist guild just because we change to DKP, it's more depending on what people is in the guild and as we have it now we have a better, more friendly feeling in the guild than in a long time but there are other issues with DKP.
If, and I say IF we change we have to work out a DKP system that is suitable for our guild and that meet the needs and demands of every guildmember. That is a lot of work to be done.

Whats the alternative?
Well, the only alternative is to do nothing, don't fix anything that ain't broken yada yada yada. It's not that easy!
Since Raia and I formed the veto system I think it has been a better, more fair system than anything else I've seen but it don't work on 25-mans.
I still think that we shall practice that system up to 10-man raids. If someone isn't familiar on the idea I think it can be found here on the forum somewhere or I can explain it to you later, just ask me.

On the 25-man raids we have the rolling system which is totally unfair because you have to trust your luck to get stuff, we have the DKP system that some say it's fair and others say the opposite. I'm not gonna argue who is right or wrong here and now but I don't like the infected discussion this tend to be.
So what do we do?
Choose between two equally bad systems or challenge the officers to sacrifice a raid and have an officer meeting to discuss and create a RMWP system that works for all of us?

I mean how hard can it be to at least give it a try. Raia and me spend a night to discuss the veto-system and it served us well for a long time now. It can't be much harder than that.

[whitemikki]

The Vote will remain open for another 5 days. After that the Officers will discuss the results and decide is any action is needed.

Regardless we will come up with somehting Written and more concrete. It may just be to write down the system we already use.

Also, The Veto system will soon need to be put in place for 10 Man NAXX and people complete the gear process there. We need the geared and experienced players to take the newer ones to NAXX through and the Veto system has served us well in the past.

Regards
Ragnor

[[moonskin]]

its not only about geting loot, i really enjoy raiding with friends. but...

i hated DKP system when i was in my previous guild. they were raiding everynight and i didnt have time than, could only raid 3-4 days a week. so i was low on DKP points, and i couldnt get loot or had to wait for the next drop.
but, it also sucks, when someone who doesnt raid at all have equal share of loot (roll) and wins the loot while regular raiders spend more time and effort to get raid there.

i get only a feral staff and cloak from whole 10man(all from the first)-25man naxx, malygos runs. i pass on rolls if its a minor upgrade for me, even my gear is blue.
but seeing ppl roll on 25man T7 stuff even they had 10man T7 same slot, and seeing ppl getting the loot and leaving raid saying "this isnt working", i started to think we need a system.

and if u think it guildwisely: every loot we get, we owe it to the guild and other 9 or 24 men. u cant raid on yourown and get that loot. and every raider should have get loot and geared-up so we can do harder raids, not only 1-2 overgeared ppl in whole raid.

there isnt a 100% fair way to do it but we can create our system or rules to make most of the ppl (not all ofc) happy and keep guild progressing.